Not everything runs at commandline

When it comes to servers, throw Windows into the dustbin. SSH to a Linux box is so much quicker than trying to RDP to the Windows box and click on start.

My conclusion is that every operating system has it’s own pro’s and con’s and at the end it’s the end users choice.

I recently sat for days trying to fix a Windows server that simply stopped starting up – no messages except for an eternal “Applying Settings”. Nothing in the logs under safe mode.

After much messing around with so-called “recovery”, I reloaded the box and had to do some funky command-line “seizing of roles” because the other servers couldn’t understand that their fallen brother wasn’t coming back. Next, many obscure and ungoogleable errors as I tried to “recover” Exchange. In the same week two other servers died completely because of network worms – one of them 1600km away!

In the end I replaced the basic mail server function with Postfix/Dovecot on a Linux box (in 30 minutes) and later outsourced our mail entirely to Google.

I sometimes wonder if I see all these defects in Windows because I look especially hard for them – or if others can’t see them because they are just not experienced in any alternative. I must say its easy for me to forgive Linux problems, even though I do complain about them.

Ultimately I think Windows is apt punishment for those who choose it, I just wish I did not have to be punished along with them.

I agree with Greg, if you want to play with the tools I provide you, do it on your own kit, in your own time. I give you access to only what you need. I don’t have time to fight with technology.

Getting back to my MCSE’s tirade though, no, I don’t employ them, I’m a green/black screen admin, I do work with them though and my infrastructure is probably a little bigger than a SME who hires multiskilled staff. And in my time I’ve met some very smart windows folk and some very dumb *NIX staff.

I stated my reasons, and it’s a proof by example, the merit is all over the world for all to see. Please re-read my previous comment again. I’m fairly sure you’re at a skill/experience level enough to realise that a lot of pretty cool things are done on windows servers without me having to spit out examples. I think it’s pretty obvious. If I were having this discussion with britney spears I might have to justify my remark with examples, but this is a tech site. I’m sure you haven’t just started using computers and stumbled on this comment section randomly.

>> That goes to argue then that you don’t *want* your users fiddling with settings. You don’t want your user to even know anything about it.

Well, again, obviously – the sysadmin’s job is to provide a stable, consistent working environment for the employees that they can’t break by fiddling. If they need to know any more about it or need more access to do their job (ie developers and such), then it’s the sysadmin’s job to give them the appropriate info/access. If a user wants to fiddle with stuff, do it at home or in a VM.

And to follow up your other remark..I guess a web server should also store and perform some other assimilated services? Or would I be having my head in the sand to say that? You’re thinking of a package deal, Brett. You’re going into this to buy the 2-year contract from Vodacom that gives you the 3G dongle and 2-year walk-in service. I’m going into this buying the cellphone and a prepaid SIM card.

As for the mail server story, what do you think a mail server is? It’s a multifaceted collection of services. Simply living in the MTA world is keeping your head in the sand.

Getting down to the skills of MCSE’s vs UNIX staff, UNIX staff generally tend to work on high end kit and usually are a little more careful around it, however you simply cannot compare the amount of material / training required for a MCSE as opposed to say a RHCE. Have you seen what the networking component looks like? Clearly not.

To be fair though, I was brought up under the often not so gentle hand of administrators and sysop’s over the years, I’ve worked on a great deal of platforms in my time, not just UNIX and Windows. I have the greatest respect for admins who know what they’re doing and follow sound practices, Windows/UNIX/Other

“I would never [...] even realistically consider using linux for:

a) A mail server
b) A file server for desktops
c) A desktop”

I’ll half-grant you (c). Windows on the desktop is often a better fit for users than Linux would be, although lately this does seem to become less of an issue than it used to be. But now next we have to look at (a) and (b). Your definition of file server being constricted to only SMB, aka Windows Sharing, feels somewhat..selective. What about the alternatives? WebDAV? NFS (which is now even supported by default on Windows 7, to my knowledge)? Then we’ll move on to your definition of a “mail server” as “a mail, calendaring, appointment and all-the-rest-in-the-groupware-class server”. This is either blatantly ignorant of what encompasses the functionality of “mail server”, or is a mindset so deeply engraved due to the package offering in which way you get Windows-based mail servers and as a result is just “the answer”. And with “the answer”, I mean it in the same as you’d reply “Ag, okay” when someone asks how you are doing while the two of you are greeting.

Next, Greg’s statement. “It’s so *obviously* wrong [...]“. I almost want to comment “cute” in response to this, but that might be too patronizing. Using the word “obviously” falls within the domain of implicit knowledge, and is not a strong basis to use for an argument. You have to state your reasons and, as far as necessary, show their merit and how this trumps the opposing argument(s).

Regarding the (working) knowledge of network protocols and error codes, I do want to posit a question, or rather a consideration, for this point: how many *nix admins are trained by way of apprenticeship (in which case their mentor and “syllabus” may be of varying quality), autodidactism or alternatively undergo formal training, versus the trained Windows administrators who have a minimum basis of documentation or coursework which to go through and show sufficient knowledge of before they can use the title MCSE? The reason for this question is plain: the one would most definitely be exposed to the meaning, the other not so surely.

You’re mistaken about how much MCSE’s actually do know about the network layers and as for SMTP, not a hell of a lot of UNIX staff know the different error levels.

Kriek, you really can’t compare Windows and UNIX staff, they’re different mindsets, it’s like comparing my section to the AS/400 and Z people. Same industry different way of thinking.

I can agree that Windows is the most suitable for offering Microsoft file and print services to a network of Windows desktop users. When it comes to Outlook style integration and collaboration for an office of desktop users, Exchange is a strong choice, but when it comes to mail transfer, filtering and delivery, Exchange is a very poor choice. Most of the time Windows is simply the most suitable thing to work with for an environment that’s already Microsoft dominated, which is usually office IT. For internet facing infrastructure, especially on the higher end, various Unix flavours make better sense.

However, most of the time, the main problem seems to be the people. You can easily find a Unix administrator with 15 years experience, who has had access to documentation, source code and a feeling for best practices built up and refined over the years. On the Microsoft side it’s impossible to find a Windows 7 expert with 3 years of experience, and it’s going to take quite some time for that person to learn a lot of the quirks the hard way and from reverse engineering this closed source system. There are people who are very good with Microsoft products, and I have come across a few of them, but they usually spent some years working for Microsoft in the US. I don’t have that much trouble finding Unix experts that can build and maintain implementations of a similar calibre, though to find them cheaply is hard.

While Windows may have technical merits in some things it does, it crushes the spirit of science to get there. I don’t care how much money you can make off either platform. The only things that matter are freedom, art, science, and the deeper understanding one can gain from others and elevate for others. So please, take your selfish, fascist, capitalistic software and burn it – it is a disease on humanity regardless of how well or badly it might get certain jobs done.

I absolutely agree with your points on the desktop, mail servers and file servers. I believe my article says as much.

As for my article being without fact… well it is an opinion piece, but I have declared my bias and put forward my reasoning. As much as was possible in this format.

I don’t mind being wrong about this. Actually I would like to be wrong as this would restore my view of a harmonious Universe. But no matter how I examine it, I keep coming back to the same conclusion.

I’ve been around *NIX’s so long it’s just the colour of the box for me, I look after a large Linux infrastructure and I like it that way.

I would never for a second even realistically consider using linux for:

a) A mail server
b) A file server for desktops
c) A desktop

And before the comments about sendmail, exim, postfix, qmail etc, I’ve worked with all of them, they’re MTA’s, just that. Exchange is the whole deal. Fileserver? Samba? Right. Nice toy, when it works.

Seriously Matthew, we would have expected more from you. If greg is who I think he is, we’ve both been around the block and both can authoritatively say your article is utterly biased and without fact.
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